Propostion 8 and Hate

If you’ve followed the news lately, you know that California’s Proposition 8, which modifies the state constitution to restrict the definition of marriage to be between a man and a woman, essentially denying the rights of any gay couple to enjoy the benefits of marriage.

What exactly does this mean – here is an exhaustive list of the rights and responsibilities of marriage:

Rights when your spouse passes

  • Pensions
  • Survivor benefits & payouts
  • Continuation of health insurance
  • Copyrights
  • Water rights
  • Wages & workers compensation
  • Consent/objection for body donation
  • Notice of probate hearings
  • Permission to make funeral arrangements
  • Funeral & bereavement leave
  • Inheritance of property

Rights while married

  • Assistance for spouses separated due to military service
  • Per diem payments
  • Immigration sponsor
  • Disability payments and benefits
  • Social Security
  • Medicaid
  • Income Tax deductions, credits, etc
  • Preferential hiring for spouses of veterans in government jobs
  • Tax-free transfer of property between spouses
  • Change of surname when married
  • Right to enter into a prenuptial agreement
  • Spousal privilege in court proceedings (same concept as doctor-client privilege and attorney-client privilege)

Shared rights of both partners

  • Bankruptcy
  • Parenting rights
  • Visitation rights (hospital, prison)
  • Next-of-kin status (emergency medical decisions, wrongful death filings)
  • Custody of children, shared property, child support, and alimony after divorce
  • Domestic violence intervention
  • Access to “family only” services such as reduced rates to certain clubs and organizations
  • Adoption and foster care
  • Joint tax filing
  • Insurance coverage
  • Legal status with step-children

Responsibilities

  • Spouse income and assets counts when applying for assistance
  • Subject to conflict-of-interest rules
  • Ineligible to receive survivor benefits upon remarriage

Many of these rights can be given by entering into legal contracts between two people, but many of them can only be given via marriage. Why does marriage have to be limited to between only a man and a woman? There is nothing in this list that would apply differently if the relationship is between a woman and a woman or between a man and a man versus being between a man and a woman.

Why is it that so many people are against denying these rights and responsibilities to two people that love each other?

Are they scared their own marriage won’t mean as much because suddenly gays are allowed to marry? Marriage doesn’t mean much already – just look at the divorce rate in this country. Just because Jane and Joe down the street have a terrible relationship doesn’t mean that your relationship is going to be terrible.

People that are against gay marriage say that it will destroy our society because the children raised by gays are growing up in an unhealthy environment. There are plenty of cases where heterosexual couples don’t love each other. Which is the better environment for the child? With parents that love you and each other, or with parents that don’t love each other? Or even worse, being a single parent.

I have a good friend that is a single parent, she has done an excellent job of raising her daughter. If a single person can do a good job of raising a child, then two people working together can raise an even better child. And I argue that a single parent can do a better job then two people who don’t love each other – as there will always be fighting between the parents, which is not a good environment for a child.

There are many gay couples that want to have children. There are many many many children in this country that need loving parents. Why are we denying the gays the right to adopt and raise these children? The heterosexuals aren’t doing it, why not let the gays? How many of these children raised by “the system” are actually healthy contributing members of society? Most of them are really screwed up. If a gay couple can raise a child in a healthy environment, and it keeps one kid from being really screwed up, then let them!

I plan to raise my children in a way to teach them tolerance. If someone loves another person, they should be able to marry – it doesn’t hurt me or my family in any way, and doesn’t prevent me from raising my family how I want. So I will tolerate them doing what they want with their lives. Live and let live..

All people are equal, whether black, white, man, woman, gay, or straight. Anytime you try to restrict the rights of others, you are preaching hate. I will not tolerate hate around my child.

My parents are LDS, and are very strongly against gay rights. But, they never acted before to inhibit the rights of gays to marry. But that has changed. The LDS church was the source of most of the funding for the proposition 8 campaign. My parents give 10% of their income to the LDS church. So they have indirectly supported the proposition 8 campaign, and so have acted to inhibit the rights of gays to marry. This makes them preachers of hate (as well as any other person who tithes to the LDS church).

So, until my parents recognize the rights of gays to marry, and quit supporting hateful organizations, they will not see my son, and in turn, my wife or myself. I will not tolerate teachings of hate in my home, and will not expose my family to hate.

For my parents to see my son, myself, and my wife again, the following must happen:

  • They must write a letter recognizing that they have been hateful, express regret for being hateful, and stating that they have changed their opinion on gay marriage
  • They must either quit giving money to the LDS church or the LDS church must stop acting in a hateful way, and recognize the right of gays to marry

Jaspenelle and I have discussed this. She believes it is a very strong stance, but has agreed to go along with it – she very much believes in the rights of people who love each other to marry.

20 Comments

  1. gesh
    Posted Sunday, November 16, 2008 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    i am all for gay rights and their right to marriage. I made a very long post about it etc. But what I get is this from your post:
    For my parents to see me or my wife or child they must change their religion. Would you respect someone who asked YOU to do that? Really? I get what you are saying and agree with you. But not to asking someone to change their religion. Which in essence is what you are asking for in practical terms.

  2. Posted Sunday, November 16, 2008 at 6:58 pm | Permalink

    Dude,

    I’m assuming you are soliciting comments or you wouldn’t have posted this. I’m all for gay rights, have actively campaigned and donated to such causes and I’ve seen first hand the bad side of those denied the. But I think you’re going to far. I have to deal with this issue everyday and it takes WORK to not let differing opinions interfere with family relationships but the price of not making it work is much greater.

    First off, the vote lost in a free and democratic vote. So the vote didn’t go your way and now you want to punish those who voted against you? Not very democratic. In fact, you’re acting like those on the other side. Deny rights to those different than you. In this case right to their family, religious freedom, and freedom to take a political stance. The person acting in a ‘hateful way’ here is you.

    Second, you aren’t punishing your parents. You’re punishing yourself. You can’t get back the time and relationship that will now be tossed by the wayside and to repair it in the future is going to be more difficult than you think. And to deny your son a chance to know his grandparents? Don’t you know that will impact him later? Hey if you don’t like your parents because they treated you bad or something is one thing but because you don’t like their politics? You toss all they’ve done for you in the course of a lifetime overboard due to politics? So you’re saying politics is more important than a personal relationship??? How petty is that. Life is too short for that nonsense.

    You won’t agree with me but that’s my two cents worth.

  3. Posted Sunday, November 16, 2008 at 7:19 pm | Permalink

    I have to ask out of curiosities sake if you guys would be as much against what Michael wrote if he had said that he had a friend he didn’t think he could associate anymore for because of this same issue? I ask because people tend to have stronger reactions when it comes to family matters.

  4. Posted Sunday, November 16, 2008 at 7:53 pm | Permalink

    Yup, would’ve said basically the same thing for reasons previously stated. The ramifications are obviously more far-reaching though in a family situation.

  5. Posted Sunday, November 16, 2008 at 8:10 pm | Permalink

    Good point. My issue is telling someone to CHANGE for you. When if someone asked you to stop believing in ____ would you? Having someone have the same beliefs as you as qualifications to see your son seems rather petty and child like. And it seems it goes to something beyond this gay issue of rights and more to Micheal and his parents in general. Open minded people don’t demand that other right letters of apologies for their beliefs. Open minded people should accept other beliefs even when they are contradictory to tier own.

    Now don’t get me wrong. If his parents start actually spewing this crap to your son, that is one thing. And you have every single right to keep that kind of harm from infecting your son’s life. But to say no one comes in who has a different view? What happens if your son (on his own volition) had a different point of view then you? What if he grows up and grows into a belief that is his alone. Will you make him write a letter to you as well? If you want gays to have rights..how about showing it with some respect for those who have a right to their own beliefs as well? Right are for all..not just for those who agree with you. Sorry I am being harsh. But someone needs to hear it past whatever pain there is with his parents.

    Allah willing things will work out for all involved.

  6. Posted Sunday, November 16, 2008 at 8:11 pm | Permalink

    crap. excuse my bad spelling. I just had a low sugar level and my hands are still shaking. My bad

  7. Rah-Bop
    Posted Sunday, November 16, 2008 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    So what you’re saying is basically “intolerance will not be tolerated”? It seems to me that if you’re trying to teach your son (or anyone) to love others despite the fact that they may have differing world views than you do, this might be a confusing way to teach it! It seems sad to cut ties with anyone (especially your family) just because they belong to a different religion. I would encourage you to think this over a little more. <:(

  8. Alex T
    Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 at 12:55 am | Permalink

    Hey guy,

    I read your post and agree with you about the Proposition 8 stuff. I’ve been taking a bit of flak from my family about my views of LDS, Focus on the Family, etc.

    I really loathe the LDS and most organized-religions in general. I wish that their tax-exempt status would be revoked, and I said to my uncle, if there was ever a proposition to decide that I would pour so much money into it.

    I disagree with the above posters saying you are intolerant for not agreeing to your parents views or just being pissy about the democratic process. Any amount of research shows substantial undeclared donations to the Prop 8 fund originating from LDS. In short, they bought this election. I could go on but I think we are on the same page.

    But… cutting off your kid’s access to his grandparents? That’s harsh by any standard. We’ve all got crazy family members who believe stupid things; but it’s not like your parents were out waving placards along with the Westboro Baptist Church!

    Catholics tithe 10% of their earnings as well, which goes towards anti-gay causes as well as pro-life organizations that screw up 3rd world countries. Are you going to ban your child from hanging around Catholics?

    Or what happens when your child meets a Mormon friend at school, and sleeps over at his house? Are you going to not allow it because the parents are Mormon? And if you do allow it, are you going to allow “those” Mormons to see your son and not your own parents?

    LDS will never stop hating on gays, they need to hate to keep the money rolling in. It’s a business like most organized religions.

    Short of sitting your parents in front of a strobe-light to deprogram them, there’s not much you can do to change their beliefs other than rational discourse and leading by example. But completely cutting yourself and your family off from them? That smacks of that other ugly Mormon habit: shunning.

  9. Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 at 5:59 am | Permalink

    (I am dyslexic so no worries about the bad spelling! I don’t think I even noticed!) I think Michael is is worried that his parents will preach what they think to our son (hate of gays) and he is worried about putting him in an environment like that (there is also a lot of history here of course between my husband and his family.) It is hard to find a line between accepting people and condoning bad behavior.

  10. ginanne
    Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 at 9:53 am | Permalink

    its really sad you came down to this Michael, and i dont think mom and dad would teach hate against gays, they dont agree with what they do, but each person makes thier own decisions thats what LDS is about… agency, the right to choose, LDS just believe that marriage is sacred, and when gays get the right to marry then the church will be forced by law to marry gays… completely against our beliefs of God’s will… its basically taking away our freedom of religion which was why this country was formed! Anyways, I’m saying mom and dad arent against gays because dad has friends that are gay… and I grew up with my best friend as gay and mom and dad knew that and still accepted him and loved him and let me hang out with him and never once said anything bad about him being gay. I refuse to teach Emily and the rest of my kids that being gay is bad, and to stay away from those that are gay, they are some of the best people i know, very kind and open and great fun to be around.

  11. Justin
    Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 at 11:10 am | Permalink

    Ginanne, the church will not be “required” to marry gays, thats a vicious lie spread by the LDS members. Gays we’re already able to get married and the church supported a proposition that made it illegal.

    It seems like you may need to read this page, it takes all the rumors spread around by the “yes on 8″ people (including the ones said in mormon churchs) and debunks them all. http://www.noonprop8.com/about/fact-vs-fiction

  12. Angela
    Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

    So you will pretty much be doing the same thing “Us” LDS supposedly doing? It makes me upset that people like you are saying such things. You tell us that we are teaching hate yet you’re doing the same exact thing by not allowing your family to see you or your son. What the heck? It makes no sense to me. Especially since we the LDS church supported against marriage NOT against making being illegal. Marriage has always been between a Man and a Women since the beginning of time. If it wasn’t NONE of us would be alive right now! This law is not saying you if you’re gay you can’t be with one another. It just saying legally you can’t have benefits or a piece of paper saying your married!

    Oh and by the way it wasn’t just LDS that stood up for this. It was many other churches and people in general. The PEOPLE voted for it.

    It makes me really sad that you and Japsy are thinking like this. I loved Jaspy for her open-ness, understanding and kindness to all.

  13. Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 at 12:32 pm | Permalink

    Blacks once could not hold the priesthood and the church changed that. Mormons use to allow polygamy, one man having many wives, the church changed that. Why not change their stance on this? What makes this issue so different? You say that none of us would be here if gays could marry. That means you think if gay marriage was allowed everyone would be gay. I wouldn’t be, I would still be with Michael and have a son. Marriage or not.

    Even so, if gay marriage was allowed, the Mormon church would not be forced to marry gays. The court decision regarding marriage specifically says “no religion will be required to change its religious policies or practices with regard to same-sex couples, and no religious officiant will be required to solemnize a marriage in contravention of his or her religious beliefs.”

    I agree with you that Prop 8 was voted in by a small majority. Does that make it right? There is precedence for the majority being wrong. You know most people use to think slavery was fine. People use to think women were property too and shouldn’t be allowed to vote either. Once a whole country of people went along with this guy named Hitler (did you know he was voted into office?) and tried to exterminate a race, but that was a majority, so that was okay right? Were all those minorities were wrong I guess… Is gay rights so different?

  14. gesh
    Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 at 12:53 pm | Permalink

    Well unless you know something the rest of the world doesn’t….you don’t need to be married to have babies. Just an f.y.i

  15. mom
    Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 at 1:45 pm | Permalink

    I am not against gays or have any hatred toward them. I am for children and the childs rights. I am just as against sex outside of marriage, adultry, selfishness within the marriage that causes abuse and the fighting, divorce, and any other thing that takes away from the child the right to have the love of it’s biological parents there for them as much as possible. When 2 men or 2 women are biologically capable of having a child, then I will be for them marrying. Marriage isn’t only about love, many cultures love doesn’t even have to be a part of it. But love can be a part of every marriage when the 2 involved make that choice and then it increases the value of the marriage tremendously. Marriage is not about the two adults needing protection by giving them all those rights. It is about the potential children that could be born into that marriage and protecting those childrens’ rights in the case of death or divorce or selfishness, etc.
    So continue to hate me if you will, but my doors will always be open to you and your family. I will continue to respect all people even if I don’t agree with their behaviors. I have nothing against gays receiving many of those rights you listed in other ways as needed for protection in their own particular situation. so do what you have to do, but I will not be blackmailed into giving up my religion or my values.

  16. Justin
    Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

    “Marriage has always been between a Man and a Women since the beginning of time.”

    That’s simply not true. I think your mistaking having children with marriage.

    Also, I try not to correct the way people type and spell on the internet, because I’m not perfect at it either, but I seriously had trouble reading and understanding what you wrote.

  17. gesh
    Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 at 9:36 pm | Permalink

    Dear ‘Mom’
    I have to tell you I disagree with your beliefs to some extent…agree with other parts. But you have a right to believe or dislike whatever kind of lifestyle you want. Giving someone rights does not mean it’s limited to only the rights you agree with. In the end you are really a great role model for gay rights. They too shouldn’t be bullied. I guess all people who have their rights pushed upon are the same.

  18. Greg
    Posted Monday, November 17, 2008 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

    I can guarantee you that none of my tithes went toward Prop 8. I myself did not get involved in Prop 8. I didn’t have the opportunity to vote on Prop 8 and you have no idea if I would have voted for it or against it.

    I own one of the most diverse companies in the city. I employee an african american catholic, the wife of an anti-mormon, a messianic jew, an atheist, a russian immigrant and yes, a gay. Many of my clients are gay. I am a member of a business referral group that actively recruits gay business owners. Until the day he died, Jack Dean, the owner of Stonewall News, our city’s only gay newspaper, was a client as was his newspaper.

    Since the day you left my household I have not pushed my religion or its standards on you or your family.

    Your decision in not letting your family be part of mine is the biggest action of hatred and anger I have ever experienced. I am shocked and heartbroken.

    I know my gay friends well and believe they would be embarrassed by your actions.

    –Dad

  19. Greg
    Posted Tuesday, November 18, 2008 at 9:10 am | Permalink

    I got the name wrong in my earlier reply. The former owner of Stonewall News is John Dean. Jack Dean is also a client, but owns a completely different business. Good with numbers, bad with names……………my apologies.

    –gs

  20. Amy
    Posted Tuesday, November 18, 2008 at 11:45 am | Permalink

    Okay, I am a friend of youister. I am also a full-out very open lesbian. She has never judged me, or tried to say that my rights should be denied. I’m glad that you support my rights to marry, but you are going about it the WRONG way. Truthfully, you are being an ass. Your family is not the leaders of the mormon church. They cannot helhat their religious leaders do. Don’t keep your children from the family they love. That is not fair to them. Stick to your beliefs, but how about being a positive example for your parents? Be around them, and show them how a tolerant person can also be a good person.

One Trackback

  1. By No response needed, my brother beat me to it. | Nuttyguy.com on Sunday, November 16, 2008 at 9:29 pm

    [...] Read his blog, it makes all the points about prop 8 and gay marriage I wanted to, plus more. http://www.michaelandjaspenelle.com/archive/2008/11/16/propostion-8-and-hate [...]